Sabrina Cohen-Hatton (notes from a BBC interview)
/In this post, there is a list of the advanced words and phrases from the BBC Radio 4 Desert Island Discs interview with Sabrina Cohen-Hatton - a firefighter and psychologist. Aggie and I are currently creating a podcast (in which we will explain some of the words) and it will be launched on 1st Nov!
You can listen to the interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008xy6
INTRO
Chief fire officer in West Sussex
0:58 Not the stereotypical firefighter
→ only 5% of them are female
More chief fire officers called Chris than there are women in the job!
1:10 What really sets her apart is her story
→ Was a homeless teenager when tired of being invisible decided to be in fire service
1:29 Fascinated with the high pressure decisions underpinning what her colleagues were doing every day
Pursued a PHD in psychology
Observed subjects in the field
Won an award to help keep fire service professionals safe
2:06 clocked up her 18th year in the service
Her advice: be brave!
WHAT DO YOU LOVE
2:33 The privilege of being trusted by people
→ when they’re probably having the worst day of their life
May have just seen a loved one pass away
IMAGE OF FIREFIGHTER
3:08 9/10 imagine tall dark hunky calendar model when asked to imagine a firefighter
Reality: more firefighters that look like Ed Balls than Tom Hardy
Ecuador have more female firefighters per head than UK
E.g 28%
FIRST DISC ‘GIRL ON FIRE’
Little girl who’s 9 who loves this track
4:36 bellowing out at the top of her lungs
Beautiful lyrics: having a dream
WHY PSYCHOLOGY
5:45 Really harrowing incident
Her + husband were both firefighters on neighbouring stations, 1 in 4 chance it was going to be him when someone had been severely burned
6:44 I was torn between the role of a loved one and a functioner
7:06 Bit down on my lip so hard that I’ve still got a
7:09 scar on the inside to this very day
Sense of relief that it wasn’t him and then
7:22 flooded with this sense of guilt
Difficult to cope with how she’d felt
80% of injuries over all jobs (not just limited to fire) are to do with human error
Left home at 15, school at 16
8:10 further education was not a luxury I could afford
Did research nationally to understand people’s minds when making
8:34 high pressure decisions
Nothing specific to fire
9:13 I needed to get to the bottom of how to make it safer for my colleagues and friends
80% decisions that people were making were intuitive
9:36 gut decisions if you like
10:08 If your decision is going to be scrutinised after an event then
Done in a way that recognises the way your brain makes choices
Protect them against the decision traps
SECOND TRACK ‘MI GENTE’
Work in S America
Discovered Reggaeton
10:58 I got really into it
Never expected she’d be flying somewhere else in the world because someone’s interested in my work
PARENTS MEETING
Grew up in Cardiff met in London
Father was an immigrant
Came to country with not a penny from Israel
Maths genius
12:33 photographic memory
12:39 the most charismatic person ever
Very good at reading people
12:57 Discovered a real affinity for playing poker
Very clever and very good at maths so I’ll let people come to their own conclusions (!)
13:14 Met my mum who was actually a croupier
13:16 she’s very sharp as well actually
A playboy bunny in the playboy casinos and her dad was a skilled poker player
13:40 jack the lad character
13:52 they were absolutely head over heels in love
Had a pizzeria in Cardiff
THIRD TRACK (BANK ROBBER)
Daddy was a bank robber but he never hurt nobody he just wants your money
Never stole money !
14:41 Just found a way around the rules
FATHER TUMOUR
15:30 Childhood was derailed when you were just 3
Diagnosed with a brain tumour
Couldn’t believe how lucky they were and then this happened
Affected risks that he took, changes but also personality
16:20 cognitive degeneration
16:27 Took away a part of his soul
Set up an email account for Gabby (daughter) and email her every day with thoughts and
17:02 musings or just something that’s happened
Will send it to her so then if anything happens to me she’ll have some conversations with me as an adult
17:27 the finality of death
FATHER’S DEATH
Hard for a long time when he died (when she was 9)
Still sleeps on the sofa where he died
Suffered with her mental health
18:02 Very volatile difficult environment
18:11 Lived in abject poverty
On benefits
18:57 When someone goes to war with their demons, everyone else gets hit by shrapnel
19:04 At 15 found myself sleeping rough because it was a better alternative
Sleeping on the streets - homeless
Doesn’t blame mother because she was ill
FOURTH TRACK (SAMARITANS)
19:36 Listen to the lyrics, because they’re very poignant
19:41 It’s about the toxicity of macho masculinity
Disproportionately exposed to trauma in my job + with suffering with mental health + not likely to ask for help
Don’t want to be seen as weak → we are protectors
Get away from the idea of men can’t cry, ‘man up’ etc
20:52 That kind of rhetoric, that language
HOMELESSNESS
Not long before my 16th birthday
21:55 Some really really dark difficult times
A teacher saw him selling the Big Issue and put down his head and crossed the road
Before the Children’s Act
Tried to find her old social worker
23:14 If I’d gone back and persevered maybe I would’ve got help
Gave you some comfort when it wasn’t just you
23:43 Went to sleep in the subway
23:46 fed up of the dark
Had a stray dog, we befriended each other
24:05 He was my rock
Woke up and some guy was urinating on my sleeping bag and Menace jumped up and lets just say I dont think that guy will be doing that again
24:35 dehumanising on so many occasions
So hungry all of the time, started eating out of a bin
25:08 quickly darting in and grabbing it
People would look at me in disgust and I would look back to say, how can you stand by whilst your fellow human is so hungry that they have to eat out of a bin
People walk past you like you’re some kind of ghost
Make eye contact and say hello
Didn’t always have hope, but enough
THE BIG ISSUE
26:48 Every vendor that you see is homeless or vulnerably housed
26:52 They’re a micro entrepreneur
Buy for 50p sell for a £1
FIFTH TRACK (ANARCHY IN THE UK)
27:29 Guy called Ian who really looked out for me
Reminds me of him
Got anarchy symbol tattooed on my back at 14 !! Since had removed
CONTINUED HOMELESSNESS
28:49 Sense of hyper vigilance within you [LL]
29:04 Used to sleep in a derelict building
29:16 It was a bit of a sanctuary
I’d play through these scenarios (if someone came in) and find multiple exit routes
Stack paint cans to throw at someone etc
29:46 Very alert and aware of surroundings
→ Very anxious
These feelings served well in my job
Change in wind direction I noticed, so could’ve sparked neighbouring garages but because of hyper vigilance they managed to change tactics
WHY FIRE SERVICE
30:48 scraped enough together to get a little flat
Applied to 31 different fire services !
Wanted to rescue others
31:40 A police officer moves you on
32:02 Didn’t disclose any of her background
→ Only been this year when she’s started to talk about it (taken 21 years)
32:23 Lots of people who’ve got in touch with me since
5 ft 1 wearing 20 kg of gear
EARLY FIRE SERVICE
First 6 months I wasn’t allowed my own name
32:58 They called me something really derogatory
“No place for women in the fire service”
33:18 I’d get really fed up
33:22 No place for morons in the fire service
And say “Yeah I don’t think there’s any place for morons in the fire service but you know here we are”
33:31 You were bullied
33:58 The stereotype of a firefighter is so pervasive
Felt threatened by the fact that I could do it
SIXTH TRACK (DON’T LOOK BACK IN ANGER)
34:46 My darling long suffering husband
34:58 I remember thinking just don’t fall for him
First song that we danced to
REPEATED TRAUMA IN FIRE SERVICE
36:01 PTSD in emergency service workers
36:11 Made huge strides in past few years
36:22 Found an outlet and processed mine
A guy that blamed himself for a particularly harrowing experience with a little girl
Only by chance that he broke down in front of a doctor
37:15 Really difficult to navigate his relationships with his peers
People said that he did this 9 months off for attention
37:54 high profile incidents
(that help improve understanding and appreciation of the severity of mental health issues)
GRENFELL
Involved in aftermath of this event
38:33 Ran our welfare centre for people coming off the shift the next day
In charge of the scene for 2 days
Haven’t spoken about it publicly
So much that happened and people don’t have answers still
39:03 That’s the bit that will give them the closure
(the inquiry)
39:53 Because they trigger something that you can relate to
SEVENTH TRACK (STEREOPHONICS)
40:07 Had to have something that nodded to my Welsh roots
This tragedy that never happens to you but it can
See people in that place every day
Gratitude for what you have and who you have
41:00 Never take anyone for granted
SHARING LIFE STORY
41:43 putting pen to paper
Writing about decision making
42:04 Finding it really difficult to disentangle who I was and my experience
Had to include it, otherwise missing a part of the jigsaw
42:18 Had to confront my past
42:28 Took a lot of guts to talk about it
Become a Big Issue Ambassador
42:51 Been in that place where you feel like you’ve been written off
Confined by what people expect from you
43:11 Inspired some hope in people who may not have had any
EIGHTH TRACK (54 86)
Power of perspective
People with the least share the most
44:14 Walking a mile in someone’s shoes
ISLAND
Will miss my little family the most
45:18 Making coconut moonshine and things like that
BOOK
Was going to try and cheat the system by taking a family photo album
Hemmingway Man and the Sea
Powerful story of resilience and mental toughness
46:09 A very evocative book
LUXURY
Now takes family photo album
46:39 A caveat that it’s self updating
And an unlimited supply of ice cold gin and tonic!
CHOSEN TRACK - BANKROBBER